Recorded live from the OECD Rural Development Conference in Rio de Janeiro, Shayne MacLachlan speaks with Shahid Iqbal Choudhary, Secretary to the Government in the Department of Rural Development and Panchayati Raj, about how India’s fascinating track-record of rural transformation can offer practical lessons to policymakers everywhere.
Tune in to hear how one of the world’s most dynamic rural transformations is unfolding and what it means for the future of development.
Dr. Shahid currently serves as Secretary to the Government, Department of Rural Development and Panchayati Raj (Local Self-Government). Over the course of his distinguished public service career, he has held several key leadership positions, including Secretary, Tribal Affairs, J&K Government; CEO, Mission Youth J&K; Managing Director, Skill Development & Livelihood Initiatives; and multiple tenures as District Development Commissioner/District Magistrate in Srinagar, Rajouri, Bandipora, Leh, Udhampur, Kathua, and Reasi. He has also served as Additional Secretary in the Chief Minister’s Office, Director, Information & Public Relations, Managing Director, J&K Tourism Development Corporation, Additional Secretary, Planning & Development, Special Officer, Relief & Reconstruction Leh, and SDM Nowshera.
Internationally, Dr. Shahid is recognized as a resource person on mobile indigenous communities, transhumance, and migration. He is a member of the UN Working Group for the International Year of Rangelands and Pastoralists and has represented India in international collaborations on pastoralism and migratory indigenous peoples in Albania (2021), Ethiopia (2021), and Italy (2022).
As Public Affairs and Communications Manager, Shayne engages with policy issues concerning SMEs, tourism, culture, regions and cities to name a few. He has worked on a number of OECD campaigns including “Going Digital”, "Climate Action" and "I am the future of work".
Transcript
Host
Welcome to OECD Podcast, where policy meets people.
Shayne
We’re in Rio de Janeiro at the Green Rio Conference today in the wake of the OECD Rural Development Conference. And today we’re speaking with Dr. Shahid Choudhary, an award-winning Indian civil servant named for his work in district administration, as well as rural governance and large-scale public service delivery.
Shahid has led reforms in some of India’s most remote and complex regions and his experience brings a really practical lens to rural development policy. So, in this conversation today we’re going to look at how India delivers services at scale, how communities can become more resilient and how digital tools are reshaping rural governance.
So, thanks for joining us today, Shahid. But before we get into specific policies, how would you define effective rural governance in the Indian context and what has shaped your approach to that?
Shahid
Yeah, I think effective rural governance is a multi-dimensional concept in India when you see it from different geographical, cultural and regional point of views. So, in terms of rural governance, I think there has been a transition over the last many, many decades. So, I look at it from three perspectives. One is their economic independence. I mean, revenue generation at local level, their independent decision making from the legal and the policy point of view. And third is their political independence.
So, these social, economic and political perspectives of rural governance. So, what I have seen over the years that right since 1970s, when we introduced the schemes to empower the local village level governance. So, there have been a lot of advancements.
There have been different experiences with different states, some states which implemented the local rural self-government policies in 1970s, they are today placed much ahead in human development index as compared to those states which were quite late in implementing those decentralized systems of governance.
So, I would say in just one sentence, the decentralised system of governance where the “Panchayat”, the village bodies have the power to raise their own finances, make their own budget, implement laws and raise revenues at the local level. So those, I mean, the kind of independence at the local level in terms of governance, in terms of political stability. And that is something very important which reflects the spirit of rural India.
Shayne
Yeah, great. Thanks so much for outlining that particular aspect. India, I mean, it’s undergoing really rapid rural transformation. What in your view is the single biggest shift happening in rural India right now and what do policymakers really need to grapple with and understand?
Shahid
Yeah, I think to understand this, we just need a perspective like in 1960s and 70s when we were facing food scarcity, food shortage. So, we were spearheading the green revolution, then we had the white revolution for increased milk production and so on. Today, I think the Indian rural agriculture system is transitioning towards diversification, towards sustainability.
So, two most important things which I see today is one is that the rural economy is moving beyond agriculture into diversification which involves processing of food and multiple sources of income for the farm dependent families and beyond processing, I think there is a lot of buzz in villages about entrepreneurship.
So, diversification and second is about sustainability. Like India has around 73, 74% of agriculture land in South Asia, population, sorry, and around 80% of the agriculture land is with us. So, we have huge opportunity for a sustainable food production for the times to come as our population is growing. So, I think these are the two most important challenges which are diversifying how we look at the rural economy.
Shayne
Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, you’ve touched on sustainability, climate impacts are increasingly severe in rural regions across the world. How is India building resilience at the community level, at that local level?
Shahid
So I think post 2005, there has been a huge shift towards empowering local communities when we started with the Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act. So apart from that, I think mainstreaming of disaster mitigation, building it into the rural planning, then decentralisation of plan at the three levels, one is at the village level, then you have it at the block level, then you have it at the district level. So, an economic independence and independence to make budget make laws as I discussed earlier. So, I think these are very important perspectives from which we can understand this.
Shayne
Indeed, indeed. And as well Shahid, you’ve worked extensively with women, young people and tribal communities and made a really powerful impact there. How do you ensure that these groups are really genuinely included in decision making rather than kind of being consulted late and often too late in the process?
Shahid
Yeah. You know, India has the biggest challenge of diversity. Like I said, there are different cultures, there are different geographical regions. So, no one solution can fit all the groups of the people or the regions. So, what we have seen that the foundation of this thing has been laid in the Constitution of India which recognises all these diverse groups. When you talk about the tribal communities, the pastoralists.
So, the Constitution provides that the funds proportionate to these populations should be reserved by all the departments. Say if a department is planning to build infrastructure in water supply, portable drinking water supply or irrigation.
So they have to make it sure that the funds proportionate to these tribal or pastoralist families are reserved in the budgeting. So that, I mean, makes it sure that planning process takes into account the unique needs. Then talking about women, like we have, I think, one among the world’s largest programs about women empowerment, the national, NRLM, the National Rural Livelihood Mission in which millions of women have been organised into self-help groups.
So those self-help groups are funded entirely by the government, and they are diverse groups working from hand looms, handicrafts and so on in other sectors. So, I think for the socially and economically backward classes, we have specific schemes for the tribal communities for women. So, there has been, I would say, a positive discrimination towards weaker groups, not only about reserving funding for them but providing them equal opportunities as compared to cities, as compared to other urban areas and the developed communities.
So, India has been focusing on, I’ve been bringing, I had all the deprived sections through many of its schemes like we have budgeting and the seats reserved for communities belonging to the backward classes belonging to the tribal communities.
So, a lot is, I mean, at play, at work for empowering these communities, particularly the tribal communities, the backward classes and special focuses on women. Like in last 10 years, we have been spearheading a campaign of women empowerment at village level throughout the country, and I think that has given amazing results.
Shayne
Amazing, yeah, very encouraging to hear the successes in those stories. So, I mean, let’s turn the conversation now to technology as a force multiplier. I mean, the world over knows that India has made major advances in digital public infrastructure. What do you see as the core role of technology in strengthening rural services and governance as well?
Shahid
Multiple things I think if you see the inroads of the unified payment systems, you will find that the digital payments have reached almost every household in the country. And the foundation of this was laid around a decade ago when we started a mission to ensure that every single rural household should have a bank account. The financial literacy of every family was one of the top priorities of the government and millions of such families have been covered in past more than a decade.
And I believe that use of technology is, I mean, we already had a huge infrastructure for internet, but the use of technology has been spearheaded at multiple levels in last many years. So, I would just mention a couple of things that even a farmer using his mobile today sitting at his home can apply for various government schemes.
If you talk about the Kisan credit card, if you talk about the loan schemes, so they do not need to visit the government offices or banks. So today they can apply for these schemes sitting at their home. The state I come from, we have more than 300 services already, I mean, digitised, which can be availed by the people sitting at home.
Look at the Right to Information (RTI) Act. I mean, you can seek any information from any office across the country just at the click of a button from your mobile under the RTI Act. So, I think there are a lot of things, particularly I would say a lot of schemes which are for say farm machinery for subsidies, talk about say PM Kisan. So, everything is available online, right from registration to the disbursement of instalments from the bank, the support from the non-banking financial institutions. So, everything is available online and I think India has been a leader in promoting digital literacy for many, many years now.
Shayne
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s, I mean, a great example of how your own work and using digital tools has improved access to services, as you said, social protection, as well as participation in the economy. I mean, as countries expand digital services, how do you think they can prevent gaps between well connected and remote regions for a while, just to broaden the conversation beyond the interview?
Shahid
Again, I think when we started about the process, when we started using the digital services the first and foremost issue before the bureaucracy or before the political government was the geographical disconnect, was the shadow areas. And I think more important than that was the levels of literacy in the rural areas.
So, how we have been, have been addressing this is like we established the common service centers. The CSEs have been established almost at every village, multiple CSEs are there across the country. So those common service centers have been provided in the internet connectivity. So, if in the entire village, let’s assume that there is nobody who is literate, there is nobody who is using a mobile. He can still go to the common service center, which is connected through the internet, which has liberal services available from the government.
And this is, this is again, a unique model of public-private partnership with local educated youth as volunteers, getting some kind of support from the government, are providing all these services to the, these people in the farm sector in the villages. Then again, I think we have huge challenges like we have the words largest climate-driven seasonal migration, the people who migrate.
So, right now, we have thousands of children registered in the schools, which also migrate. So, there have been a lot of challenges given the, I mean, diverse issues faced in the country say migration of pastoral communities, the rural urban migration, literacy rate and availability of the internet connectivity. So, I mean, there are multiple ways in which the government is addressing.
So I think common service centre is one of the finest examples where you can say that the government is very keen to ensure that no single family, even in the remotest village, even in the remotest hamlet, should be deprived of the basic services in our endeavour to transform to the digital interface or digital delivery of the public services.
Shayne
Yeah, amazing. So, I mean, in terms of how India is building its rural governance capacity, you obviously, had a long experience working directly in districts and with local administrations. But from your perspective, what’s the most effective way to strengthen rural governance capacity in India and maybe beyond in the OECD context?
Shahid
Yeah. Like initially I mentioned about decentralisation of the functions. So, three important things which India has adopted, funds, functionaries and functions. Like the government has, India has a federal system where, I mean, budgeting is done at different levels. So, there are central grants which flow to the states. So, what India has done is that we have linked the performance grants. We have linked the funding to decentralisation of power. Say if you do not have a village institution, village level local, self-institution of governance, you do not get a particular fund.
If you do not have a local self-government institution, say in a small municipality. So, you will not get those funding. So, one important thing is that the funding is related to having an elected institution at village level. Like as Secretary of the Rural Development and the local self-government in my previous assignment. I had more than 35 000 elected people in a small state of 1.4 billion populations.
You can just imagine electing such a huge number of people every five years. That’s a challenge. And I think India has taken that challenge to ensure that local level governance, local level democracy is strengthened. So, the funds are given to the village level.
And then second functions. So more than around 29, 29 different sectors, different departments have been transferred to the village level local, self, local, self-government institutions. So, all these functions, all these departments are under the complete control of the village level bodies and third is functionaries.
So, we have defined the structure that what kind of officials will be under the control of say district development commissioner position I have been holding for around 10 years. And what kind of officials will be under direct control of the block development council and the kind of officials who will be reporting directly to the village penchites say local revenue official, local official from say water supply department, from road department, all of them report to the village level local self-government institutions.
So I think these three important things about funds, functions and functionaries, their delegation to the village level local self-government institutions. This has been the hallmark of the questions question you have just asked.
Shayne
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, let’s just look beyond India and I think it’s really obvious that we’ve got so much to learn from your experience and the impact on the ground that you’re making clearly and with the examples that you’ve spoken about. So many OECD countries look to India for these innovative approaches to large scale implementations. But what lessons from India’s rural governance and your experience might be relevant internationally?
Shahid
Yeah, I would say it’s a two-way process like I have been to many countries in Europe, in Africa for my work related to pastoralism, so I have learnt a lot of innovative things from other countries. But for Indian context, what I mean best can be replicated in other countries is something whichI had just elaborated in the previous question, in response to the previous question, that strengthening the local level institutions of self-governance.
I think that is the one and only thing which can strengthen the village level or the rural level communities that you elect them through a very transparent process. You give them funds, you depute the functionaries at their disposal, and you build their capacities. So I think the democracy in real sense is that when you have empowered village level bodies, not only the parliament, not only the state legislatures, but I think this is the foundation of a democratic system and building their capacities to manage funds, to manage budgeting, building their capacities for planning and development and monitoring.
So, I think this is the foundation of something which India has steered. So that is what I think I would recommend as the best practice from India that you have a very empowered village, a very empowered set of village communities through these local institutions of self-governance.
Shayne
Brilliant, brilliant. I mean we are here in Rio de Janeiro at Green Rio; we have just come off the back of the OECD Rural Development Conference. What do you hope global rural policy makers in attendance here in Rio will take away from the discussions that we have had?
Shahid
Yeah. I think all of us agree with one thing that we learned different perspectives, different perspectives. Like for an Indian scenario, I just learnt about the use of technology and how I the forest education and other things are being implemented in different countries. So, I think like what I am taking home is use of advanced technology, use of robotics in agriculture which India has just experimented and we are beginning. So, the idea is that when you had policy makers, researchers and public policy experts here drawn from all across all around the world. So, there was huge learning among the participants among different countries.
So all of us are taking home something new, something unique, be it education related to the forest and sustainability, be it a transition to the renewable energy, diversification of agriculture and I mean the cold gen integrity and a lot of things which we studied and discussed about food security and huge interdependence between rural and urban communities. So, I think this was again a unique conference to this effect that we learnt different perspectives from different countries which would certainly shape the public policy in these countries for times to come.
Shayne
Right. Thanks Shahid. I mean that sounds like the raison d’etre of the OECD. So, I am glad that this conference fulfilled that particular ambition. But finally in a very last question as we close, if you had to offer one practical recommendation to policy makers who want to strengthen their rural communities, what would it be?
Shahid
Yeah. So, I think one and only thing I always suggest is that we should not see the rural communities or the farm communities as a distinct community, not linked to the urban areas. So, the villages and the cities are completely interdependent. The villages are supplying food, nutrition support to the cities and cities are also working on food processing, remittances, policy and other things. So, the one and only thing I always project is that we should stop looking at the villages or the rural areas as something distinct from the urban areas.
There are distinct challenges, but we should feel that what are the, like something I learnt in the presentation yesterday is rural proofing, what somebody from OECD mentioned. So I think rural proofing of the policies is one concept which I would recommend to the policy makers that whenever you bring in a new policy, just look at the impact it will have in the rural areas, in the villages, in food production systems, in the rural systems. So, I think rural proofing is something I would recommend as a public policy to all my colleagues.
Shayne
Fantastic. Fantastic. Rural proofing. Okay. So, listeners take that away. Thank you so much, Shahid, for your time today. We’re here at Green Rio, sweating it out but recording a podcast all the same. Thanks for listening to OECD Podcasts if you want more information on rural development policy, do Google that online and stay tuned for more from the campaign #FromTheGroundUp.